Cities Skylines (1&2), SimCity 4, city simulators - sperg about simulations that include or don't include niggers

Which city simulator is the best

  • SimCity (Original)

    Votos: 7 3.1%
  • SimCity 2000

    Votos: 37 16.2%
  • SimCity 3000

    Votos: 21 9.2%
  • SimCity 4

    Votos: 93 40.8%
  • SimCity (EA)

    Votos: 0 0.0%
  • Cities Skylines 1

    Votos: 55 24.1%
  • Cities Skylines 2

    Votos: 1 0.4%
  • Мухосранск

    Votos: 4 1.8%
  • Workers and Resources

    Votos: 10 4.4%

  • Total de votantes
    228
Getting as many citizens off the roads should be your goal when you have a city that size or else you'll have endless traffic jams and then cars will start despawning and your city will spiral into a death wave.
My traffic flow is 78%, it was getting below 70% at one point so I just destroyed a big chunk of my industry and replaced it with office space. That alone helped it but a big part of it was that I built up a new section of my city that was kinda out there and it had a bunch of office and commercial space which requires educated people who lived further away so they had to drive. My train, metro, tram, and bus system couldn't handle it all so I just had to wait it out until the people in that area got educated enough to take those jobs leading to less cross district traffic.
 
I've recently been playing a lot of SimCity 4 for the first time in 20-ish years and HOLY SHIT, I'd forgotten what a buggy clusterfuck this game is. The fact that they never patched some of this really basic, easily replicated stuff is embarrassing.
Did you just play vanilla, or have you used mods like NAM and the other good stuff?
 
Did you just play vanilla, or have you used mods like NAM and the other good stuff?
I tried NAM and it seems to help with traffic some, but I'm talking about much more basic problems with the game, like my utilities advisor regularly freaking out about how my city doesn't have enough capacity to be selling water to neighbors when I'm buying water or every tile on the map suddenly indicating having no power for no reason and then magically fixing itself.
 
Sounds like temporary issues that arise when you do not pause the game while building stuff. I normally would build things and do the zoning while paused, then let it run for a few months on the highest speed, and when things have become normal, go to lowest speed.
 
The actual problem of SimCity 2013 was that it tried to do everything on an agent system for some insanely illogical reason. Perhaps they thought it should be like an Impressions game but didn't understand that the model that Impressions uses works because all the agents on that system are visible and even then, many of the systems in it didn't need it.
The idea of a Sim-as-agent wasn't a bad idea on the drawing board, and it could've made a city feel more "alive" but there were a lot of other agent systems in the game that didn't need to be there, and the way SimCity (2013) handled agents is kind of sucky anyway. Maybe that could've been fixed in development but it wasn't, and like SimCity 4 never got a complete set of patches.

Still, even at it's most abstract level, price of construction should be tied to cost of labor and to the price of materials involved. After all, if you have lots of lumber mills in your area, wouldn't it make any timber construction a fairly cheap task?
There should be some sort of policy that makes construction more or less expensive, like if you had lots of bullshit ordinances it would make building more expensive from the base construction cost. Modifying base construction cost isn't new, if I recall SimCity 4 often changed the price of road-building if it needed terrain leveling or whatever.

In SimCity 3000, there was an ordinance called "Earthquake Resistance and Retro-Fitting" which made buildings more resistant to earthquakes and was calculated by the number of buildings you had. So at least some sort of labor cost in building would make sense.

There are still two problems with your example. The first, from an economic standpoint, is that having an abundance of a certain type of resource doesn't make much of a local impact in large-scale supply and demand environments. You can definitely employ people and use that for a tax base, but it doesn't make it cheaper. My state grows lots of pecans but because pecans are demanded worldwide, buying pecans (unless it was some sort of farmers' market where pecans are not grown for export) is not particularly cheaper than anywhere else. Having a lumber mill in town would be great but if the demand is high elsewhere then that would all go towards export. Unless there's a specific tax on the resource, cities can only tax businesses. Counties, for instance, often will go after "personal property tax" for businesses that are measured in what you own to produce income, so for a small one-person operation that might just be a computer, whereas bigger businesses with more stuff (inventory, equipment, etc.) is taxed more.

The second reason is from a video game standpoint, is that you're essentially saying that anyone would be a disadvantage if they didn't start out in a heavily wooded area because wood would give more resources to start with. Obviously what type of terrain you start out with in real life makes a difference in how cities are built but you shouldn't be punished if you decide to start out on the coast instead of a semi-forested area.
 
@Xarpho's Return
The idea of a Sim-as-agent wasn't a bad idea on the drawing board, and it could've made a city feel more "alive" but there were a lot of other agent systems in the game that didn't need to be there, and the way SimCity (2013) handled agents is kind of sucky anyway. Maybe that could've been fixed in development but it wasn't, and like SimCity 4 never got a complete set of patches.
It didn't just have Sim-as-agent, it went as far as trying to model ELECTRICITY as an very fast moving agent rather than doing something sane like simply representing it as a fixed force that only is limited by carrying capacity of the wires and how much juice is in the local grid. Absolute madness and very unsurprising that it gave you a fairly small plot to work with because anything larger and performance issues would exponentially grow.
There are still two problems with your example. The first, from an economic standpoint, is that having an abundance of a certain type of resource doesn't make much of a local impact in large-scale supply and demand environments. You can definitely employ people and use that for a tax base, but it doesn't make it cheaper. My state grows lots of pecans but because pecans are demanded worldwide, buying pecans (unless it was some sort of farmers' market where pecans are not grown for export) is not particularly cheaper than anywhere else. Having a lumber mill in town would be great but if the demand is high elsewhere then that would all go towards export. Unless there's a specific tax on the resource, cities can only tax businesses. Counties, for instance, often will go after "personal property tax" for businesses that are measured in what you own to produce income, so for a small one-person operation that might just be a computer, whereas bigger businesses with more stuff (inventory, equipment, etc.) is taxed more.
Construction materials are a different thing from consumer goods. Due to the volume of goods involved, shipping costs are a real issue and no matter the global cost, as long as the local price is around the same, constructors will go for the option has the shorter shipping times / lower shipping costs. This also is how many places end up choosing the materials they use to construct things. This can also be observed from many historical cities where available resources do make a difference in what is the preferred method of construction. Got lots of sand and clay? That means the place will prefer brick construction over wood construction. Got quarries making lots of aggregate gravel? Concrete both poured and pre-fabricated becomes the preferred choice, especially if steel rebar also is available. Got oil? Bitumen won't be a problem to get.
The second reason is from a video game standpoint, is that you're essentially saying that anyone would be a disadvantage if they didn't start out in a heavily wooded area because wood would give more resources to start with. Obviously what type of terrain you start out with in real life makes a difference in how cities are built but you shouldn't be punished if you decide to start out on the coast instead of a semi-forested area.
A city builder should have some challenges to deal with, because otherwise you just get a glorified paint program. Having higher costs until you set up your naval infrastructure shouldn't be a hard problem to solve, especially if there is some industry to fill the local demands at least partially.
 
It didn't just have Sim-as-agent, it went as far as trying to model ELECTRICITY as an very fast moving agent rather than doing something sane like simply representing it as a fixed force that only is limited by carrying capacity of the wires and how much juice is in the local grid. Absolute madness and very unsurprising that it gave you a fairly small plot to work with because anything larger and performance issues would exponentially grow.
Yes, modeling electricity as being agent-based is retarded. Arguably, the original SimCity (1989) has the most advanced power line system since as lines got longer power dissipated. This was likely an extremely simplified number based on tiles and indications are it got removed in SimCity 2000, because partially trying to calculate that is a huge pain when dealing on a macroscale, so much so that Factorio (as linked) which usually has autistic calculations like this, is also either simplified or doesn't exist.

Meanwhile it also had poop agents, which seemed entirely unnecessary (I'm of the opinion that sewage doesn't need to have its own network).

Construction materials are a different thing from consumer goods. Due to the volume of goods involved, shipping costs are a real issue and no matter the global cost, as long as the local price is around the same, constructors will go for the option has the shorter shipping times / lower shipping costs. This also is how many places end up choosing the materials they use to construct things. This can also be observed from many historical cities where available resources do make a difference in what is the preferred method of construction. Got lots of sand and clay? That means the place will prefer brick construction over wood construction. Got quarries making lots of aggregate gravel? Concrete both poured and pre-fabricated becomes the preferred choice, especially if steel rebar also is available. Got oil? Bitumen won't be a problem to get.
Working in reality and working with a simulation are too different things, and sometimes things don't translate into the other either based on too hard or not fun.

A lot of cities have small concrete plants but those aren't actually concrete from-scratch, they're ready-mix suppliers. The base dry product (Portland cement, made from limestone) is imported from somewhere else, all these plants do is mix it with water and crushed gravel to have liquid cement, which is perishable and has to be used in the area the same day. Same thing with asphalt...oil reserves don't mean better access to asphalt. Oil has to be exported out to be processed, and then re-imported as finished products. Maybe if you had a full oil refinery as a business in your city, but even then, you're up for a wider market and the local area would still have to buy it at market price.

The oil example is especially egregious, in Factorio (yes I'll use it as an example again), the rocket silo's three ingredients all use oil at some point in their process (assuming Nauvis, which uses the most grounded production cycles, I'm not talking about Gleba's plant-based fuel)

Your examples only make sense in very limited economies, with poor or non-functioning logistics. And a modern city simulator should have all the logistics that it needs to function properly.

A city builder should have some challenges to deal with, because otherwise you just get a glorified paint program. Having higher costs until you set up your naval infrastructure shouldn't be a hard problem to solve, especially if there is some industry to fill the local demands at least partially.
Generally, when it comes to Cities: Skylines being a "city painter" it's that the core simulation mechanics that were present in the SimCity series when juggling land value, pollution, crime, taxes, etc. just aren't there, and can't really be modded in because that's not how the mods work.

edit: spelling
 
Última edición:
The actual problem of SimCity 2013 was that it tried to do everything on an agent system for some insanely illogical reason. Perhaps they thought it should be like an Impressions game but didn't understand that the model that Impressions uses works because all the agents on that system are visible and even then, many of the systems in it didn't need it.

Still, even at its most abstract level, price of construction should be tied to cost of labor and to the price of materials involved. After all, if you have lots of lumber mills in your area, wouldn't it make any timber construction a fairly cheap task?
With all the conversation around “what were they thinking“ for sim city 2013. I highly recommend people watch Oceann Quigley (totally real name) GDC talk about how they designed SimCity core concepts to be communicated on a single slide.

So like electrical distribution, for example, would have to be described on a single slide. Illustrated with cute little graphics.

The talk is quite interesting because they do defend the idea of everything being an agent, although they agreed that it was a mistake in the end. At the time the logic was along the lines of they could multithreaded all agents and I think they had this idea that they were promised agents could be Extremely extremely fast. Obviously this never happened because no matter what kind of quantum computing you have, agent based simulation, will always lead to this kind of issue with speed.
 
With all the conversation around “what were they thinking“ for sim city 2013. I highly recommend people watch Oceann Quigley (totally real name) GDC talk about how they designed SimCity core concepts to be communicated on a single slide.

So like electrical distribution, for example, would have to be described on a single slide. Illustrated with cute little graphics.

The talk is quite interesting because they do defend the idea of everything being an agent, although they agreed that it was a mistake in the end. At the time the logic was along the lines of they could multithreaded all agents and I think they had this idea that they were promised agents could be Extremely extremely fast. Obviously this never happened because no matter what kind of quantum computing you have, agent based simulation, will always lead to this kind of issue with speed.
There's the issue of rushed development time and understanding what's actually possible with the computers most people, something that Maxis had lost track of by that time. The big strategy guide for SimCity 2000 reveals all sorts of information that was scrapped in development, including how the game was originally designed to be closer to ground level but realized fairly early on how screen redraws wouldn't really work with what they had; besides, when they tested multiple buildings on the screen it just looked too flat.

2025-11-08 20_03_23-SimCity 2000 - Power, Politics, And Planning, Revised Edition - Strategy G...png

There was also a more advanced water flow simulation that was scrapped because that's not something early 1990s computers handled easily.

This is what makes Cities: Skylines II all the more a bad product. Unlike SimCity (2013), it wasn't hamstrung with EA dictating what needed to be in the game and needing to make it on a tight timeframe, it had all the time they needed with no real restrictions and ended up making the worst decisions. Even now, two years after release, the game still is buggy, no console release in sight, and Bridges and Ports released to an underwhelming response. EA and Activision have shut down studios for less.
 
Colossal Order is "parting ways" from Cities Skylines end of this year. Paradox's in-house studio, Iceflake, will be taking over work on the franchise starting in the new year. Bikes, some dlc, and the asset editor will be put out in the final 3 updates from Colossal Order, the first of those coming Wednesday.

Imagine being so incompetent that you get fired by Paradox of all things.
 
Colossal Order is "parting ways" from Cities Skylines end of this year. Paradox's in-house studio, Iceflake, will be taking over work on the franchise starting in the new year. Bikes, some dlc, and the asset editor will be put out in the final 3 updates from Colossal Order, the first of those coming Wednesday.

I wonder if this is the end for cities skylines 2. Game is still missing many core features from cs1 and is very buggy/unoptimized. I dont really see how a new dev can fix this.
 
Colossal Order is "parting ways" from Cities Skylines end of this year. Paradox's in-house studio, Iceflake, will be taking over work on the franchise starting in the new year. Bikes, some dlc, and the asset editor will be put out in the final 3 updates from Colossal Order, the first of those coming Wednesday.

You want to tell me that shipping a half-baked, buggy mess of a sequel for a highly successful game, that's still a half-baked, buggy mess two years later, is going to upset the publisher? Who woulda thunk.

Get fucked, retards. Especially the ones who bought this POS knowing how bad it is, especially compared to the prequel.
 
Imagine being so incompetent that you get fired by Paradox of all things.
I don’t wana blame CO.

There is no way that CO independently decided to make CS2 when CS1 was still doing gang busters. I guarantee you paradox demanded a new platform for it to be built on that would allow them to easily add DLC and paid content as the first City skylines wasn’t designed from the ground up to be a money printer.

I also don’t think that a new studio will fix all the problems. CO we’re working on “bikes dlc” and not “fixing the whole fucking core of this broken laggy mess” because paradox most likely refused to put any money into anything that doesn’t just directly translate into another vector for making more money.

I think it’s quite obvious to people that paradox are a pushy publisher desperate for new titles that were built for monetization.

What happened to skylines has already happened before with PrisonArchitect. Where they tried to rush out the sequel because paradox wanted something that they owned the ground up, but it was a laggy mess and the developers didn’t want to launch it, so they moved it to a new studio and now that game is delayed indefinitely (also the first prisoner architect is still very popular and played by thousands of people).
I don’t know much about this game, but apparently it’s the exact same thing also happened to Bloodlines 2, where it was with its original developer but then when it came to the forced sequel, things went wrong and they got rid of the developer and gave it to the Chinese room.
 
I don’t wana blame CO.

There is no way that CO independently decided to make CS2 when CS1 was still doing gang busters. I guarantee you paradox demanded a new platform for it to be built on that would allow them to easily add DLC and paid content as the first City skylines wasn’t designed from the ground up to be a money printer.

I also don’t think that a new studio will fix all the problems. CO we’re working on “bikes dlc” and not “fixing the whole fucking core of this broken laggy mess” because paradox most likely refused to put any money into anything that doesn’t just directly translate into another vector for making more money.

I think it’s quite obvious to people that paradox are a pushy publisher desperate for new titles that were built for monetization.

What happened to skylines has already happened before with PrisonArchitect. Where they tried to rush out the sequel because paradox wanted something that they owned the ground up, but it was a laggy mess and the developers didn’t want to launch it, so they moved it to a new studio and now that game is delayed indefinitely (also the first prisoner architect is still very popular and played by thousands of people).
I don’t know much about this game, but apparently it’s the exact same thing also happened to Bloodlines 2, where it was with its original developer but then when it came to the forced sequel, things went wrong and they got rid of the developer and gave it to the Chinese room.
I do blame Colossal Order for the decisions made during the development of C:S. No real vision, no one cares about fucking Chirper, it was a cheap copy of SimCity without bothering to understand how it worked or what it was based on.

I also blame them for the randomly-generated citizens, they're ugly as hell, they rarely make sense, they're not optimized, and they slow the game way down.

I read that the reason why C:S is what is was because it was designed to be a budget game and they only got a huge break because of the mishandling of SimCity 2013. Therefore it would only stand to reason that C:S2 would be the chance to do everything right to actually give the people the city simulator they want, with a bigger budget and lessons learned from the original C:S. Unfortunately that wasn't the case.
 
I read that the reason why C:S is what is was because it was designed to be a budget game and they only got a huge break because of the mishandling of SimCity 2013. Therefore it would only stand to reason that C:S2 would be the chance to do everything right to actually give the people the city simulator they want, with a bigger budget and lessons learned from the original C:S. Unfortunately that wasn't the case.
Exactly. With the revenue they pulled on C:S they weren't some tiny studio making a game with paper clips and tape anymore. They had the opportunity to do things right and, if we are to believe them that C:S2 started back in 2016, they had enough time to do it. Add in the injection of cash they got with the release of C:S2 and there's absolutely no excuse for the glacial speed of development these past 2 years. Estimated numbers from Gamalytic so not official but they give an idea of how much money has been on the table that CO squandered.

Obviously won't say we're saved with Paradox since they have their own share of fuck ups but at least they have an incentive to actually push the game forward.
 

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Something said above, I really wished more games took the Workers and Resources approach and treated the construction sector as a vital industry. I also wished more games took religion as an important factor with churches as most city builders feel like atheistic cities with no soul.

The feature id want the most is certain buildings being fought tooth and nail against like in real life with especially massive projects like stadiums, high rises and low income apartments. I feel that I could roleplay as a mayor/project manager having to figure out how to sell a project to citizens of the city rather than an inconsequential ant farm
 
The feature id want the most is certain buildings being fought tooth and nail against like in real life with especially massive projects like stadiums, high rises and low income apartments.
German version: refugee asylums, wind power plants, 5G radio towers, roads, rail tracks, and huge electric car factories.
 
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